New Scaratings :: View topic - A quick look at Rhino vs. Rhino+

As many know, more have likely guessed, few will care about and almost all at least were surprised about, I have been dabbling in team play the last few weeks. this morning I decided I had enough scores in both styles to take a look and see what effect it's had, as this is often a matter of interest and contention.

Have you considered the possibility you suck as a team player? :lol:

-BO- wrote:

Have you considered the possibility you suck as a team player? :lol:

Me or Rhino? If me, I have not only considered but touted the possibility that I suck as a team player after a certain amount of drinks. I once guaranteed the wrong answer five questions in a row on Six, when I knew the answer to every question

/does not drink quite so much anymore.

Have you considered the possibility you suck as a team player? :lol:

-BO- wrote:

Have you considered the possibility you suck as a team player? :lol:

Considered? Hell no - pretty much assumed, and demonstrated (just ask Legend about Gregor Mendel).

Still doesn't explain the numbers though. If it were just the SD numbers I'd say that was it and be satisfied.

-BO- wrote:

Have you considered the possibility you suck as a team player? :lol:

Haven't tried data with that many degrees of fredom, and don't have enough to try, but may be interesting when I do. So far I've seen no downward effects on overall scores (although certainly on individual questions - I am far from immune from confirmation bias where I remember the one sports question where Legend pulled me from a correct guess far more than the dozens where he gave me the right answer, and of course block out altogether the one where I pulled him from a correct literature answer to my misinformed opinion) but it's early days yet and I don't have a huge number of different games to track. It's possible that if we teamed routinely on Lexitopia I might drop a bit, although I still have trouble wrapping my head around how. I've so far been pulled off quite a few right answers, but I've undoubtedly, as shown, been given more right ones in return - and it's not like I was terrible to begin with. Likewise I hope I have helped much more than hurt, while undoubtedly doing both.

Actually that raises a question - I want to check what effect I've had on the team. It won't be a 100% clean function as there are other variables, but I will take a look and report that too.

Hmm first one is interesting. Before me Dragon averaged 11097 on BB. After 12935. I'd like to claim the credit but it's unlikely that my help alone can make somebody 700 points better than I am with the same team! Easier BB's maybe? I grabbed a player very close to my last score from a very consistent elite team - Danny K's (the multiple H fellow), and found actually this last group after my teaming (obviously no effect on them!) were at a 300 pt lower score on average for him from those before. Not definitive, but not a sign of a sudden shift to easier games either. Curious. Showdown next:

Wow - SD is really fun. After my arrival Dragon averaged 48654. Before? 48834. I did eliminate one obvious wrong final SD in the latter group not to cook the numbers but to equalize the populations, since it's inevitable such a case will happen with me on the team at some point too, just not yet. So I have had essentially no impact whatsoever on a very comparable player's SD scores, while teaming with others including that player has boosted mine by over half (20% or so even if you eliminate final losses since I have not yet suffered one on a team). Clearly SD relies much more on playing in a group than the other games do, and perhaps a bit less on adding another capable player where others are already contributing (either that or I am just fricking useless at Showdown, while being quite helpful on BB).

-BO- wrote:

Have you considered the possibility you suck as a team player? :lol:

/does not drink quite so much anymore.

Author:	Rhino [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:25 am ]
Post subject:	A quick look at Rhino vs. Rhino+
As many know, more have likely guessed, few will care about and almost all at least were surprised about, I have been dabbling in team play the last few weeks. this morning I decided I had enough scores in both styles to take a look and see what effect it's had, as this is often a matter of interest and contention. My teaming has been twofold: BB-SD on Tuesdays (sometimes GD too) with an established, already decent if not quite elite team that was until very recently at BWW Green River. There were a few strong players, one very strong, and a few occasional helpers there already. Then Wednesday Six at Beef O'Brady's Newburgh, which is essentially Legend, myself and my wife with a few (different to Tue and not quite as useful) occasional helpers. The Tue team very recently moved there too - quieter and better boxes. Last week in May for SD, and June for Six was the change. Nobody is ever going to say I was the greatest at any of the three games solo, but, at least for BB and Six, few can honestly rate me lower than "pretty good" I would hope. Obviously, the better the player, the less boost they get from teaming - just ask Spotes about the massive effect my help had on his paltry medal count Here's the results (I included Thur Six too because even though no team then, the wife and I have mostly kept sharing for that game since the move, and a helper or two will throw in an answer from time to time. Some solo efforts in there, but no way to isolate): Six post teaming avg: 54351 Six pre teaming: 50451 7.7% gain Showdown post: 49794 Showdown pre: 31553 57.8% gain BB post: 12221 BB pre: 11139 9.7% gain Clearly the big shift is SD, with its massively weighted to no-clue scoring and possibility of losing major points. The big difference it's made for me is more the much reduced chance of getting the final tragedy wrong than the (very real however) more questions right on other rounds. From long history of playing SD alone. I would honestly estimate my average if I got the last one right in the very low 40s. The greater boost in the other Tue game is likely due to the more mature (as a team - although there are a few greybeards) and deeper bench-strength team. Legend is indeed a capable player, and my wife is fairly strong too, but they don't add up to the 4 or 5 decent players on Tue. It's a little counterintuitive maybe in that there is a very very pronounced overlap in the BB expertise of myself and the Tue team's strongest player, Dragon. We are both strong on the same topics, although he is clearly superior on the finer points of history and geography, whereas I may have a bit of an edge on fine arts. The Six effect is very different, as Legend's strength is one of my weakest areas - sports. Overall a bit LESS of an impact than I would have predicted, except in SD of course, while still being definitely significant in both statistical and ranking terms. Again, the impact will vary with the ability of both the soloist and the team of course. Trying for a tournament or two in the past with me and a few hapless button-pushers gained me little and them a great deal, whereas adding just about anyone to 86th Street at full strength will not change much, but it's a definite indicator that even fairly strong soloists will see significant boosts with even a small number of useful teammates to fill in the gaps, validate good guesses to prevent second thoughts, or warn away from bad ones to cause second thoughts.

Author:	Dante [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A quick look at Rhino vs. Rhino+
Rhino wrote: As many know, more have likely guessed, few will care about and almost all at least were surprised about, I have been dabbling in team play the last few weeks. this morning I decided I had enough scores in both styles to take a look and see what effect it's had, as this is often a matter of interest and contention. It's always interesting. I ran stats myself on a few games I used to play solo vs. with a team. While in most the Team Play would help a bit (and in Showdown, as you saw, significantly. And in Sports Trivia, playing with a team increased my scores almost 500%), in others my scores on average were lower. The odd part was that some of those games were ones I knew less in, but usually could guess very well (Glory Doze). It's also interesting when you can show, playing as a team, where certain players affect your scoring. LIL E (RIP) had an astonishing negative effect on my scores, though I would swear to you that I paid no attention to his answers whatsoever. On the old numbers I put together, LIL E equaled the effects of six bourbons on the rocks. While I would say my score improves the most when I play with FSHMAN, in reality my scores improved the most when I played with Cloudy (Countdown). For Sci-Files, I would say my scores decreased when Scar wasn't present, when in reality my scores increased, while other people on the team's scores decreased (I still haven't figured that one out, though I believe it's related to the fact that he seems to only miss the really easy games). Likewise, for Spotlight and Playback, I would have guessed that my scores improved the most when CRCKHD was present (who kicks unbelievable ass in those two games, and in Sci-Files), when in reality my scores improved the most whenever Scar or Cloudy were present, with Tim's presence being the next most effective.

Author:	Rhino [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A quick look at Rhino vs. Rhino+
Haven't tried data with that many degrees of fredom, and don't have enough to try, but may be interesting when I do. So far I've seen no downward effects on overall scores (although certainly on individual questions - I am far from immune from confirmation bias where I remember the one sports question where Legend pulled me from a correct guess far more than the dozens where he gave me the right answer, and of course block out altogether the one where I pulled him from a correct literature answer to my misinformed opinion) but it's early days yet and I don't have a huge number of different games to track. It's possible that if we teamed routinely on Lexitopia I might drop a bit, although I still have trouble wrapping my head around how. I've so far been pulled off quite a few right answers, but I've undoubtedly, as shown, been given more right ones in return - and it's not like I was terrible to begin with. Likewise I hope I have helped much more than hurt, while undoubtedly doing both. Actually that raises a question - I want to check what effect I've had on the team. It won't be a 100% clean function as there are other variables, but I will take a look and report that too. Hmm first one is interesting. Before me Dragon averaged 11097 on BB. After 12935. I'd like to claim the credit but it's unlikely that my help alone can make somebody 700 points better than I am with the same team! Easier BB's maybe? I grabbed a player very close to my last score from a very consistent elite team - Danny K's (the multiple H fellow), and found actually this last group after my teaming (obviously no effect on them!) were at a 300 pt lower score on average for him from those before. Not definitive, but not a sign of a sudden shift to easier games either. Curious. Showdown next: Wow - SD is really fun. After my arrival Dragon averaged 48654. Before? 48834. I did eliminate one obvious wrong final SD in the latter group not to cook the numbers but to equalize the populations, since it's inevitable such a case will happen with me on the team at some point too, just not yet. So I have had essentially no impact whatsoever on a very comparable player's SD scores, while teaming with others including that player has boosted mine by over half (20% or so even if you eliminate final losses since I have not yet suffered one on a team). Clearly SD relies much more on playing in a group than the other games do, and perhaps a bit less on adding another capable player where others are already contributing (either that or I am just fricking useless at Showdown, while being quite helpful on BB).

Author:	Dante [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A quick look at Rhino vs. Rhino+
Rhino wrote: Haven't tried data with that many degrees of fredom, and don't have enough to try, but may be interesting when I do. So far I've seen no downward effects on overall scores (although certainly on individual questions - I am far from immune from confirmation bias where I remember the one sports question where Legend pulled me from a correct guess far more than the dozens where he gave me the right answer, and of course block out altogether the one where I pulled him from a correct literature answer to my misinformed opinion) but it's early days yet and I don't have a huge number of different games to track. It's possible that if we teamed routinely on Lexitopia I might drop a bit, although I still have trouble wrapping my head around how. Lexitopia is a game in which people usually have a "good guess" on the right answer. And often those answers are absolutely wrong. I think it is a game where if you have a decent knowledge of root words, your teammates don't have a lot of obscure word knowledge, and you trust your teammates, your team scores can often be lower than your solo scores. Back when Lexitopia started, I used to do better (very small sample size), by myself than with my team. Of course, to be fair, the last two times we've played Lexitopia, I was almost 100% at fault for our scores being bad. Consecutive strings of bad "pretty sures" and a few "guarantees" on wrong answers from me put us in the toilet.

Author:	-BO- [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A quick look at Rhino vs. Rhino+
Have you considered the possibility you suck as a team player? BO

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A quick look at Rhino vs. Rhino+ https://scaratings.com/newScaratings/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=1169	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Dante [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A quick look at Rhino vs. Rhino+
-BO- wrote: Have you considered the possibility you suck as a team player? BO Me or Rhino? If me, I have not only considered but touted the possibility that I suck as a team player after a certain amount of drinks. I once guaranteed the wrong answer five questions in a row on Six, when I knew the answer to every question /does not drink quite so much anymore.

Author:	-BO- [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A quick look at Rhino vs. Rhino+
Dante wrote: -BO- wrote: Have you considered the possibility you suck as a team player? BO Me or Rhino? If me, I have not only considered but touted the possibility that I suck as a team player after a certain amount of drinks. I once guaranteed the wrong answer five questions in a row on Six, when I knew the answer to every question /does not drink quite so much anymore. Rhino. I would never say such a thing about an all-powerful mod. BO

Author:	Rhino [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A quick look at Rhino vs. Rhino+
-BO- wrote: Have you considered the possibility you suck as a team player? BO Considered? Hell no - pretty much assumed, and demonstrated (just ask Legend about Gregor Mendel). Still doesn't explain the numbers though. If it were just the SD numbers I'd say that was it and be satisfied.

Author:	-BO- [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A quick look at Rhino vs. Rhino+
Rhino wrote: -BO- wrote: Have you considered the possibility you suck as a team player? BO Considered? Hell no - pretty much assumed, and demonstrated (just ask Legend about Gregor Mendel). Still doesn't explain the numbers though. If it were just the SD numbers I'd say that was it and be satisfied. Oh I know. Hopefully when you make it down again DACTYL will trek over and we can ruin our BT/CD averages by sharing answers. Or we could play some cutthroat as well. The first sheep is on me! BO

Author:	BUD [ Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A quick look at Rhino vs. Rhino+
Rhino wrote: -BO- wrote: Have you considered the possibility you suck as a team player? BO Considered? Hell no - pretty much assumed, and demonstrated (just ask Legend about Gregor Mendel). Still doesn't explain the numbers though. If it were just the SD numbers I'd say that was it and be satisfied. I'd say way too small of a sample size to be meaningful. Keep up the teamwork and get back to us in 6 months.

Author:	stevej84 [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A quick look at Rhino vs. Rhino+
Rhino wrote: Haven't tried data with that many degrees of fredom, and don't have enough to try, but may be interesting when I do. So far I've seen no downward effects on overall scores (although certainly on individual questions - I am far from immune from confirmation bias where I remember the one sports question where Legend pulled me from a correct guess far more than the dozens where he gave me the right answer, and of course block out altogether the one where I pulled him from a correct literature answer to my misinformed opinion) but it's early days yet and I don't have a huge number of different games to track. It's possible that if we teamed routinely on Lexitopia I might drop a bit, although I still have trouble wrapping my head around how. I've so far been pulled off quite a few right answers, but I've undoubtedly, as shown, been given more right ones in return - and it's not like I was terrible to begin with. Likewise I hope I have helped much more than hurt, while undoubtedly doing both. Actually that raises a question - I want to check what effect I've had on the team. It won't be a 100% clean function as there are other variables, but I will take a look and report that too. Hmm first one is interesting. Before me Dragon averaged 11097 on BB. After 12935. I'd like to claim the credit but it's unlikely that my help alone can make somebody 700 points better than I am with the same team! Easier BB's maybe? I grabbed a player very close to my last score from a very consistent elite team - Danny K's (the multiple H fellow), and found actually this last group after my teaming (obviously no effect on them!) were at a 300 pt lower score on average for him from those before. Not definitive, but not a sign of a sudden shift to easier games either. Curious. Showdown next: Wow - SD is really fun. After my arrival Dragon averaged 48654. Before? 48834. I did eliminate one obvious wrong final SD in the latter group not to cook the numbers but to equalize the populations, since it's inevitable such a case will happen with me on the team at some point too, just not yet. So I have had essentially no impact whatsoever on a very comparable player's SD scores, while teaming with others including that player has boosted mine by over half (20% or so even if you eliminate final losses since I have not yet suffered one on a team). Clearly SD relies much more on playing in a group than the other games do, and perhaps a bit less on adding another capable player where others are already contributing (either that or I am just fricking useless at Showdown, while being quite helpful on BB). Team play helps if..and only if..the other players can fill gaps in your personal knowledge base..if they are feeding you answers you already know..then it doesn't help much. As for SD, team play can help for the no clue rounds..especially Pyramid. not so much on final as I found that I rarely if ever picked up a correct final answer from a teammate when I was mistaken. stevej/LOWFI who rarely plays anymore as a soloist nor as a team player

Author:	scar [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A quick look at Rhino vs. Rhino+
Dante wrote: -BO- wrote: Have you considered the possibility you suck as a team player? BO Me or Rhino? If me, I have not only considered but touted the possibility that I suck as a team player after a certain amount of drinks. I once guaranteed the wrong answer five questions in a row on Six, when I knew the answer to every question /does not drink quite so much anymore. Well, those wine bottles were on SPECIAL. You got a good deal buying them by the bottle....

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